The scheme that old 332 is showm in is entirely original - I have another couple of grainy colour shots of her in this condition, and more importantly, quite a few black and white ones of her after capture by the allies and in europe - some of them show her being loaded onto tank transporters (presumably for movement back to the states) - careful examination of those b/w pics confirms that the colour shots are indeed her original finish

Greg

People,

I remeber reading something that Simon Barns over at "On The Way" website posted sometime ago and would like to to share it here with all of you because he touched upon a very important point that is relevent to this topic - "Information!" Posted on 03 May 2006
http://www.onthewaymodels.com/whatsnew.htm

Herb, this is one of the very best post that I have had the pleasure of reading! I have learned a great deal from those that have actually been around armored vehicles and also from those that have not! Personally, I have not had the opportunity of actually being around an armored vehicle but does that mean that I will not be able to render a credible finish on a late war German armored vheicle?

I enjoy coming here to view, read, share and post about armor modeling and have learned a great deal more that I would have ever been able to on my own because of people just like you and all of those that have taken the time to post and comment and not be the least bit afraid to take the blows from anyone because of thier personal point of view on whatever subject may be at hand.

"Thanks!" to you Herb, and to all!
Happy modeling - Eddy

P.S. Please note that the pics that Greg Taylor has kindle posted depicting the late Tiger I close -up
shots of the turret top showing the wear and tear of the finish is noteworthy in that the current trend to
weathering rust and rust stains on or near welds on late war German armor is incorrect as the
armored plates, fittings, and associated components were welded using stainless steel bead
as can be clearly seen on these pics.

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The scheme that old 332 is showm in is entirely original - I have another couple of grainy colour shots of her in this condition, and more importantly, quite a few black and white ones of her after capture by the allies and in europe - some of them show her being loaded onto tank transporters (presumably for movement back to the states) - careful examination of those b/w pics confirms that the colour shots are indeed her original finish

Greg

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Hi guys,
This subject has been discussed on ML and elsewhere, ad nauseum. After a whole lot of posts and talk back and fourth, as well as examinations of the available pics, the conclusion reached by many was that the scheme, while close, is NOT original. I have seen one pic where there are clear differences in the camo scheme on the left side of the tank (looking from the front) Hopefully this particular photo will surface in a book someday soon. Here is a link to one of the discussions, there's a lot of info in the thread that you have to wade through, but it's interesting reading (at least I thought so)

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1091653346/Mirko%27s+King+Tiger+with+the+inner+color+of+the+302+a+light+blue

Cheers,
Mike
Disclaimer: As I alluded to in my post above, there are still people who think this pic shows 332 in it's original camo scheme, I'm just not one of them.

OK, i'll chime in here.

In this picture it looks like the spare tracks were painted over.



Not so here.



cheers from the sandbox

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OK, i'll chime in here.

In this picture it looks like the spare tracks were painted over.



Not so here.



cheers from the sandbox

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Are there any color pictures of the left side of the tank taken at the same time as the color picture taken of the right side? The condition of the left side, no cut-away damage, is the painted on (or was that in chalk) salvage lettering there or not. Judging from the salvage and transport pictures, the tracks on the turret are not the best judge of the paint on the left side of the turret.

In the first set of pictures is a shot of 332 loaded on the transport trailer. No tracks on the turret rear, which show up later. So, what sections are original, which are added. The lack of right side views in the recovery series shown make this hard to determine if the right side of the turret had similar track changes. Does anyone have any pictures of the right side during recovery and transport?

The real annyoing part is the blue numbers.

The story of 332:
http://www.ss501panzer.com/Saga_of_332.htm

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The story of 332:
http://www.ss501panzer.com/Saga_of_332.htm

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Good article. I guess we will never really know, but the color pic does seem to fall into the repainted era. Let's just be thankfull that the tank was not scrapped during that incredibly stupid time when APG lost so many other unique vehicles thanks to an imbecil officer.

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The story of 332:
http://www.ss501panzer.com/Saga_of_332.htm

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Good article. I guess we will never really know, but the color pic does seem to fall into the repainted era. Let's just be thankfull that the tank was not scrapped during that incredibly stupid time when APG lost so many other unique vehicles thanks to an imbecil officer.

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The story of 332:
http://www.ss501panzer.com/Saga_of_332.htm

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Good article. I guess we will never really know, but the color pic does seem to fall into the repainted era. Let's just be thankfull that the tank was not scrapped during that incredibly stupid time when APG lost so many other unique vehicles thanks to an imbecil officer.

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Hi! I know this is veering off topic, buy I'll walk on my stone driveway barefoot for atonement!
I was at Aberdeen from January thru March 1974. There was so many cool weapon systems and vehicles all around the post I spent more than one weekend wandering around admiring them. I wish I had been perceptive enough to have taken thousands of pictures, but alas, I didn't. Even back when I was there I felt all those vehicles belonged in a building for display. I trained as a recovery specialist and some of the vehicles we practiced on were very odd looking. I bet some were one-offs and proto-types. One medium sized tank in particular that was usually mid hull deep in one of the mud pits elevated and lowered its gun by the entire turret pivoting. The pivot points were clearly visible on each side. I thought it was a silly idea because the range of motion was limited. I remember it really banged and clanged as the barrel waved up and down madly when we dragged the thing around. It was really well balanced! I always wondered what it was and never saw another like it since. Back on track (pun intended!)...

Can you please eloborate a bit on what happened there in regards to the equipment that was all over the base and who the idiot officer was and what he did and when? Was he ever punished or shamed for what he did? Even if you could refer me to an article(s) about it I would be grateful. I wasn't aware anything had happened.

PM me if you don't want to take this thread further astray. I don't think anybody will mind because threads like this are great sources of information when properly examined!

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The story of 332:
http://www.ss501panzer.com/Saga_of_332.htm

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Good article. I guess we will never really know, but the color pic does seem to fall into the repainted era. Let's just be thankfull that the tank was not scrapped during that incredibly stupid time when APG lost so many other unique vehicles thanks to an imbecil officer.

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Hi! I know this is veering off topic, buy I'll walk on my stone driveway barefoot for atonement!
I was at Aberdeen from January thru March 1974. There was so many cool weapon systems and vehicles all around the post I spent more than one weekend wandering around admiring them. I wish I had been perceptive enough to have taken thousands of pictures, but alas, I didn't. Even back when I was there I felt all those vehicles belonged in a building for display. I trained as a recovery specialist and some of the vehicles we practiced on were very odd looking. I bet some were one-offs and proto-types. One medium sized tank in particular that was usually mid hull deep in one of the mud pits elevated and lowered its gun by the entire turret pivoting. The pivot points were clearly visible on each side. I thought it was a silly idea because the range of motion was limited. I remember it really banged and clanged as the barrel waved up and down madly when we dragged the thing around. It was really well balanced! I always wondered what it was and never saw another like it since. Back on track (pun intended!)...

Can you please eloborate a bit on what happened there in regards to the equipment that was all over the base and who the idiot officer was and what he did and when? Was he ever punished or shamed for what he did? Even if you could refer me to an article(s) about it I would be grateful. I wasn't aware anything had happened.

PM me if you don't want to take this thread further astray. I don't think anybody will mind because threads like this are great sources of information when properly examined!

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The story was in an article on Japanese tanks (now I can't find it). No officer was mentioned by name, just a very sarcastic comment about how he probably got a medal for his stupidity. The event happened during the Korean War era, and there was a scrap metal drive, and it seems there all these old relics, or prototypes lying around. The vehicle in question was a Japanese self propelled howitzer prototype. It might have been in an old Wheels and Tracks. I'll keep looking, but, I sold off my Wheels and Tracks a few years ago to fund a new wave of models. Maybe some one else can remember the same story and fill in the details.

Herbert:

Glad you got a chuckle out of the japanese aircraft pic - but if the paint was so crappy - why don't they all look like that ?

- Anyway:

Where to begin - King tigers and panther g's you say, alright -

even before they left the factory they got scratches

and in service:

and good ol' 332 at Aberdeen - before they gave her the crap paint job

I know it's a Jagdtiger but the point is the same:

And Panther g's you say:

and a Tiger 1 (and before you complain that this is a museum piece - this REALLY is how hatches wear)

And on the issue of no-one in their right mind going into action with road wheels a different colour :

there seems to be an assumption on the part of some amateur historians that vehicles in a combat theatre would not challenge camouflage integrity in order to ensure mission completion - this argument of different colours on vehicles being an "aiming point" is nothing by comparison to ensuring that the mission gets done -
I can tell you from personal experience that if my company commander told me to repair a damaged road wheel on my track and the only one available was an all white one from a UN instructional chassis, and it was the only way to get operational - I wouldn't bat an eyelid putting an all white wheel on and getting back into the fight !!!

Herbert:

Glad you got a chuckle out of the japanese aircraft pic - but if the paint was so crappy - why don't they all look like that ?

And on the issue of no-one in their right mind going into action with road wheels a different colour :


Yeah, well, try going into combat WITHOUT that particular road wheel. And replacing it with what is at hand in the field results in this, so yeah, that happened. But it isn't a Rot Oxid one...

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there seems to be an assumption on the part of some amateur historians that vehicles in a combat theatre would not challenge camouflage integrity in order to ensure mission completion - this argument of different colours on vehicles being an "aiming point" is nothing by comparison to ensuring that the mission gets done -
I can tell you from personal experience that if my company commander told me to repair a damaged road wheel on my track and the only one available was an all white one from a UN instructional chassis, and it was the only way to get operational - I wouldn't bat an eyelid putting an all white wheel on and getting back into the fight !!!

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As a conclusion on your post my main question is what were you trying to show? Most pics show nothing more than dirty mucky tanks, damaged which is what one would expect.

But do any show large almost gashlike chips? No
Do any show chips straight down to bare armour plate with a polished shine? No (museum vehicle excluded)

Did a chip here and there happen? You bet, but nothing shows any actual vehicle in actual service in the actual timeperiod sporting a festival of chipping all over the vehicle measuring up to 15 centimeters or more.

So, I will stand by my opinion, the chipping as presented on models and seen as a definite must-be-on-the-model part of finishing is mythical.

herb, why do you say museum vehicles excluded ?, the point of the pics was to show if a museum tank will chip down to the bare metal then a tank in the field WILL CHIP, and will chip a hell of a lot worse, i have been fortunate or unfortunate (depending on how you look at it) to have served my country in war and i can tell you after just a few days in the field things can get pretty well messed up, so back to my original question WHY exclude museum pics ? i refer to the tiger and hetzer pics, or will you please post some pics of your models to show us how its done, please don't take this the wrong way but if you judge other peoples work then you should display your own work and let others judge it !!!!!

Herbert,

And just when I had got through praising you to others on the conduct of the thread - well pal, let me tell you - if you think that vehicles didn't chip (both to primer and natural metal) then you are indeed delusional -

Thanks for taking the time to point out the vehicles that had been destroyed by action, but the original thread was about vehicles in service - and you don't get much more in service than being destoyed by action.

about them being dirty and mucky as well - I can keep this thread going ad infinitum, mate, cos I've got more photos than you've got crap excuses

If someone entered a model into a contest looking this beaten up - I'm sure there would be someone like you there to criticise that it looked overdone - THIS IS AN ACTUAL VEHICLE !!!!

and what about these - or are they just dirty as well

I've got to say - based on your statement of DEFINITE facts of what is or isn't red oxide (from a black and white picture) you must have one hell of a pair of optics on ya.

Care for a test - I'll forward you some black and white pictures of which I've also got colour copies and you tell me what the main colours are - you up for that (we'll do it off board if you like).

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The JagdPanther shown is a prime example of how accuracy has plummeted down the list of priorities in building and finishing a kit.

For instance, the Schürzen are WRONG! They don't overlap, are bent and pieces missing, which just is not possible. Anything happen, these sheets would be lost.

The rust is hugely overdone, just completely insane for a late model JagdPanther, as is the chipping.

And THAT, the fact that "oow it looks nice" is the current trend is what I find very very sad in this hobby. The general consensus has nothing to do anymore with making things look accurate.

Is it something that is like the more accurate the kits in basis, the less interested the modeller gets in being accurate?

Scrathcbuilding has my greatest respect, I really admire people who scratchbuild either parts or complete subjects.

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no criticism eh?????????

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Herbert,

And just when I had got through praising you to others on the conduct of the thread - well pal, let me tell you - if you think that vehicles didn't chip (both to primer and natural metal) then you are indeed delusional -

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Oh my dear God, did you even READ what I typed? What was one of the first thing I said in my reply to your post? Go and read it, go ahead.

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Thanks for taking the time to point out the vehicles that had been destroyed by action, but the original thread was about vehicles in service - and you don't get much more in service than being destoyed by action.

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You brought them up to prove that chipping on the grand scale as presented on models happened, and I carefully and precisely disected each pic to prove that they do not, not one of them, show that chipping on the grand scale as presented on models happened.

{quote]
What about these babies - or are you gonna give some crap

about them being dirty and mucky as well - I can keep this thread going ad infinitum, mate, cos I've got more photos than you've got crap excuses

If someone entered a model into a contest looking this beaten up - I'm sure there would be someone like you there to criticise that it looked overdone - THIS IS AN ACTUAL VEHICLE !!!!

and what about these - or are they just dirty as well


Where are the large huge chips? Show me, point them out, make me believe!


If you look at the cupola you will see some soot residu on the rim, indicating an internal fire, that has caused the paint to flake off. And again, that is not chipping.

Where do you see chipping on this pic? I mean, show me those huge long gashes of chipped paint.

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I've got to say - based on your statement of DEFINITE facts of what is or isn't red oxide (from a black and white picture) you must have one hell of a pair of optics on ya.

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My friend, I am the first to say one can't judge colors from a B/W pic.

But my studying of how a German tank was built, the actual proces of sub-contractors assembling their parts and delivering to the plant for final assembly and the orders in which these have to be delivered, tell me why something in a B/W pic simply cannot be Rot Oxid.

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Care for a test - I'll forward you some black and white pictures of which I've also got colour copies and you tell me what the main colours are - you up for that (we'll do it off board if you like).

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Which proves what? You more slick than I am?

And as I explained just above, my judging of what is or isn't Rot Oxid comes from knowledge of the production proces, not my eyes.

But what I truly sense in this reply of yours is you just can't accept that you didn't get it right, which is really a pity. Instead of thinking over it and giving it some good thought, I get the idea from your tone that you got angry or at least upset and decided to come back and challenge me some more, and also get a couple of nasty insults in.

Is that really how you wish me to see you? Petty minded, easily upset? I think not, I think you are better than that so I invite you to really discuss this issue, and instead of trying to trample over my remarks, to really read them and try to be open minded.

It really benefits you and offers you a chance to perhaps learn from this instead of getting high blood pressure.

did you say anything about the craftsmanship (quote ) ( the jagdpanther shown is a prime example of how accuracy has plummeted down the list of priorities in building and finishing a kit ) and you say you did not criticise the craftsmanship, yet you say the building and finishing of the jagdpanther shown has plummeted down the list of priorities, as i said before herb lets see your models so i can see how it should be done , chips or no chips .

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did you say anything about the craftsmanship (quote ) ( the jagdpanther shown is a prime example of how accuracy has plummeted down the list of priorities in building and finishing a kit ) and you say you did not criticise the craftsmanship, yet you say the building and finishing of the jagdpanther shown has plummeted down the list of priorities, as i said before herb lets see your models so i can see how it should be done , chips or no chips .

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You're just looking for an argument that isn't there, period.

You're trying to make it as if I'm only here to justify my models, and to show of that I am the most talented, most gifted modeller ever.

That simply is your take on this thread, not mine.

That JagdPanther, once again and the LAST time I will waste my time on trying to get it absolutely clear to you, was technique-wise extremely well done. Get it? TECHNIQUE-wise.

On the count of being accurate, it completely fails as it shows a JagdPanther in a way it would never have appeared in World War 2. Get it?

Let me try it differently, suppose I make a model of an Elephant, the animal, and I really really work away all gaps between parts, fill every seem, make the skin texture as realistic as possible.

Than, I paint it, the skin looks perfect, there is dust on the feet, the tusks are perfectly ivory and are indistinguishable from real ivory, you can even see veins in the ears.

The toenails are just absolutely perfect to look at, on all it's SIX legs.

Now do you FINALLY get it?