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Armor/AFV: Large Scale
1/16 and Larger Armor Modeling
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Amazing T-34 model
Aitch
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Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 03:41 AM UTC
Do you mean the horseshoe shaped collar that is held in place by four or five set screws..? If so that should be flush to the cast mg bulge, the set screws run through the hole in the mg mount into another one inside the glassis plate and retain the ball of the mg in place.
Or do you mean the cast metal 'doughnut' which is a splash guard fitted round the mg support..?
If so that should be about three to four inches clear of the 'horseshoe' in real life to allow the gun to move. I'm at work now, but I'll try to find a photo later on - if someone else doesn't beat me to it
sgirty
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Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 04:12 AM UTC
Hi, thanks Logan'sdad on the grand kid. She is doing find. Already 2 weeks old today. Will be looking forward to your photos on the /85 kit.

jejack2: mine's a /43 model but I would inagine the hull mgs. are the same in the kits. I think the piece you're talking about here is P14 isn't it? If so, my instructions show that you drill a little hole into the front of F44 just above the slot where the mg barrel goes through and then glue that little plastic tip on the rear of P14 into this to hold it on. At least this is what it shows on my instructions. Hope the part numbers between kits are the same. Yes, mine has quite a gap between them too, but guess this is the way it was supposed to be.

Just finished up priming the last half dozen or so parts for the interior of the turret today and just about ready to put this area all together. Will have to remember to do some 'washes' and a little weathering to the insides of the 2 turret pieces before I glue them together.

Darn model is starting to interfere with other home projects that have to be done this summer. But such are the tirals and tribulations of this hobby I guess!

Take care, Sgirty
majorproblem
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Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 04:31 AM UTC
Hi,
Yes the MG mantlet should have a noticable gap between it and the hull, to allow for movement.

By the way, great pics and builds guys, keep em coming!

I know what you mean, sgirty, I have been trying to complete my new kitchen, but this model is sooo tempting it keeps getting the better of me!
I must have been building it for hours every day since I have had it (2 weeks I think?) and still nothing much yet to show for it.....it is an incredible build, just when you think you can finish 1 part, you then realise you have to do other pieces before its finished!

I have the main gun finished and the gearbox....engine is 80% complete / painted.
One thing I have done, is build backs on the fuel tanks inside the rear engine deck, so when the top is lifted off, the model still looks more complete than having open backs on them.....and many extra wires and piping, much to my annoyance!
I am definately leaving the top hull unfixed and possibly some of the mantlet decks?

The hull differences between the 42 and 43 are minimal, just different grab / tie handles I think?

I also have a couple of pics of the Trumpeter 85 test R/C version that a friend of mine was sent to build by Trumpeter for evaluation, it certainly looks the business!....I will put them in "my photos" album if you wish to see them.

Carl
didiumus
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Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 05:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi,
Yes the MG mantlet should have a noticable gap between it and the hull, to allow for movement.

By the way, great pics and builds guys, keep em coming!

I know what you mean, sgirty, I have been trying to complete my new kitchen, but this model is sooo tempting it keeps getting the better of me!
I must have been building it for hours every day since I have had it (2 weeks I think?) and still nothing much yet to show for it.....it is an incredible build, just when you think you can finish 1 part, you then realise you have to do other pieces before its finished!

I have the main gun finished and the gearbox....engine is 80% complete / painted.
One thing I have done, is build backs on the fuel tanks inside the rear engine deck, so when the top is lifted off, the model still looks more complete than having open backs on them.....and many extra wires and piping, much to my annoyance!
I am definately leaving the top hull unfixed and possibly some of the mantlet decks?

The hull differences between the 42 and 43 are minimal, just different grab / tie handles I think?

I also have a couple of pics of the Trumpeter 85 test R/C version that a friend of mine was sent to build by Trumpeter for evaluation, it certainly looks the business!....I will put them in "my photos" album if you wish to see them.

Carl


PLEASE DO post them!!!

Scott
jejack2
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Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 06:17 AM UTC
Sorry, I guess I should have been more specific....the metal horseshoe shaped peice held on by screws. There is a lateral gap (as the peice is flush with the hull) of about 1-2mm all the way around it...was wondering if it was supposed to be there or not. I'll try to take a pic and post it to help clarify what I'm describing. Thanks in advance!
majorproblem
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Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 06:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

PLEASE DO post them!!!


Just look in "my photos" :-)
sgirty
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Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 08:59 AM UTC
HI. majorproblem, would love to see some photos of all you done to the inside of your big t-34, esp those gas tanks as I want to add them to the /42 if I can talk the boss into letting me have one. Ha, ha! Know the area your talking about here and I wondering if there was something else in that area. Guess there is. Really liked your photos. Very nice Tiger as well!

jejack2: sorry. Are you talking about part P3 here? Mine was a rather loose fit as well, but the 4 flanges up around the upper edge seems to hold it in place. Plus I added just a touch of glue on the bottom so it would bond with the hull too. Think that piece should have been a tad bit bigger around to make it a more 'solid' fit into the hull. Must have been a reason for this, as this kit is just too well made to make such a mistake here. Oh well.

Know one thing for sure, the bigger the model the more paint you need. Have already went through 3 big 11 oz. cans of auto primer for this thing. But it's one dandy kit. On the /43, the 3 solid steel roadwheels in the middle don't turn very well, as the pins that hold them onto the axles fitted really tight.. But the two rubber-lined road wheels turn really well. It sure makes the model neat to move it along the surface and see the wheels and tracks rotate and move like the real thing. Do need some 1/16 scale extras for the outside of this thing. Have seen just about anything and everything piled on them, in every type of form. Can make ammo cases, use scale ship's rope, tree branchs for logs, etc., but tools, infantry weapons, and other things would be better from some after market suppliers. But I'm sure they are being designed and molded as we write.A year from now we will probably be surprised at all the 'extras' that will be out for these kits.

Take care, Sgirty
sgirty
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Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 01:21 PM UTC
Hi, Addd a couple more photos to my gallery of how it appears tonight. My little boy is growing up into a real bad man. Ha, ha!

But still there's lots of work there to do. Have to do some selective washes and other dry brushings to the inside of the turret and a couple areas inside the hull. And add another couple small parts inside the turret as well. Then I think I'll had some tissue paper bed rolls and other assorted gear like that in behind the mg. magazines in the rear of the turret and then glue the two turret pleces together and give it all another coat or two of paint. Then some detail painting, sealing, decals, and a heavy wash on it to match the wash on the hull. Then some dry brushings too. Found some scale rope I had out in the garage tonight so I'm going to cut a couple sections of this and wrap it around the two side grab handles on the turret and then go 'log' hunting out in the back yard, or the local park for one or two ditching beams.

And of coruse that track needs some work on it too. Some mud, an over spray of a light brown or some such color for dust, etc. to tone down that red.

Then comes the really hard part of this project for me. Think I'm going to pick up some of those weathering powders and give them a shot to see how they do. Some rust, soot, dust, dirt, shades like that to basically lighten up the basic color and add wear here and there.

Man this has been some project. I've got to tell you, this 1/16 scale has really spoiled me. I've dropped many apart out in the garage from the workbench and have had absolutely no trouble whatsoever in finding them. Have not lost one single part off of this kit. I may never go back to 1/35 after this.

Take care, Sgirty
Aitch
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Posted: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 05:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Welcome to the club.
I haven't been able to find much we can use in 1:16 scale. But I'm thinking that "toy" handtools may be found that could be used. Let us know if you find anything.
Chuck


I'm looking at ebay for 1/16th scale doll's house stuff, so far not much, unless I was doing a dio of the last lorry out of Berlin - Sheraton desks, grandfather clocks... :-)

But I'll keep looking !
majorproblem
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Posted: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 06:30 AM UTC
Hi,
I will try to get some pics up as soon as poss, thanks for the comment about the Tiger

As for 1/16 tools, etc, either Verlinden resin stuff, or if you know anyone with a Bandai 1/15 Hummel, that dont want the tool set that comes with the kit!!!....It comes with a tool box which is glued down, but Bandai give you a bunch of tools to put inside it, even though they are not seen!!......you can see these tools in "my photos" in the wire mesh basket on the rear of the turret on my Tiger 1, they are not far off scale at all!

I used to kit bash a lot, using different tools from all the Tamiya 1/16 and Bandai 1/15 kits.

On another note, I wondered if everyone is sticking to the paint colour guidlines in the Trumpeter T-34 kit?...i.e. painting handles on hatches red, etc....from viewing many many pictures, I can only presume that the museum original that Trumpeter were working and referencing from, was painted in this way, hence the instructions guiding painting handles red.
It is my understanding that all tanks had handles painted black, as in the heat of battle and confusion, black stands out against the white much bolder than red, also from referencing different books and pictures, it would appear they are black.
Just wondered what others thought of the colour references?

Carl
cfbush2000
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Posted: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 01:15 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi,

On another note, I wondered if everyone is sticking to the paint colour guidlines in the Trumpeter T-34 kit?...i.e. painting handles on hatches red, etc....from viewing many many pictures, I can only presume that the museum original that Trumpeter were working and referencing from, was painted in this way, hence the instructions guiding painting handles red.
It is my understanding that all tanks had handles painted black, as in the heat of battle and confusion, black stands out against the white much bolder than red, also from referencing different books and pictures, it would appear they are black.
Just wondered what others thought of the colour references?

Carl


Carl,
If you look back to page 2 of this thread I posted a link to some interior pics that are in color. These are from an /85 but I would assume that the colors would be the same (or close) as the /76. The red/orange handles can't be seen here, but the floor is a rust brown, and if you look in front of the driver's seat you can see considerable wear. Also, I have seen the seats dome in both brown leather and in black with black frames.
HTH
chuck
majorproblem
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Posted: Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 01:25 AM UTC
Hi Chuck,
Yes I saw your post and know and use the sites for references.
My point was that most of these sites feature museum exhibits which are all painted or restored in different colours,..i.e, some have red floors, some have dark grey floors, some pictures show white floors, black seats, brown seats, red, seats, etc.....which I suppose are due to being reupholstered and repainted to aid protection against the oil leaks, etc.

This is what I meant by I suspect Trumpeter have only used a "perhaps incorrectly painted" vehicle as their reference and shown these colour guidlines in their instructions,.....I could be wrong and will happily be corrected.

The reference books I have, T-34 in combat no.6 vol2, New Vanguard T-34 Medium Tank 1941-45 and Osprey modelling manuals 16 T-34/76 & t-34/85 show black and white photos of the vehicles in the war, clearly with dark coloured interior hatches, etc, which is whats made me question the colour references in the instructions....some of the photos in the books do look like the handles may be red, but could be a brown or even black?...I have no idea but thought all tanks had black handles.

I realise at the end of the day, it is down to artistic licence and we all do what we like ( I am painting my seats brown for more colour contrast in the interior, regardless if it is correct or not) but just cant help wondering what the correct colours for cetain parts such as the handles (and orange colour for the generator?) "should be" and wondered if I was alone in my thinking or if others had been stumped by this also?

Carl
sgirty
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Posted: Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 02:07 AM UTC
Hi, majorproblem: you're right here on the painting of various items on the museum pieces as compared to the real war-time colors applied. I was kind of surprised myself at the 'orange' generator, but just accepted it for what it was. I kind of figure that the orange on the other various handles, knobs, and such may or may not be the correct color, but it does add a 'splash' of color in those areas. Plus a dark wash and some dry-brushings of say a 'dirty grey' or some such color will tone these down considerably but still keeping the 'hint' of color there.

No matter how clear the b&w photos are from the war, there still is a lot of guess work as to what colors some things actually were as to how they show up on the photos. I have heard that a lot of AFVs during the war had their inside hatch covers the same color as the outside of the vehicle, but there again, I think it depended a lot of whether this was done at the factory or was a crew-added detail. And, of course, the Russians tended to be sort of a law unto themselves sometimes. So I figure if a person wanted to leave the hatchs on the turret white inside and just doing some weathering I believe it could be historically acceptable in a lot of cases. Who really knows for sure on some of these things.

A good solution? By two kits and paint one as to the instructions and the other to what you think it should be. Ha, ha! When I get my /85 I will most definitely consider your suggestion here and take a second look at these 'orange' pieces.

Take care, Sgirty
majorproblem
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Posted: Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 04:20 AM UTC
Hi Sgirty
I would entirely agree with you about the hatch interior colour, if someone wants to do it whatever colour, then no problem....I just like to know what the true colours should be and then decide what colour I choose, if correct or not...if you get me?
I am just questioning the instuction colour guidlines....I suppose that they are purely guidlines.

The pic below is a prime example.


(edit)...cant get the pic to show, here is the url http://afvinteriors.hobbyvista.com/t34/t34a.html it is the first top picture.

One hatch is clearly the same colour as the tank, yet the one in the background...hmm....is it white or is it the same colour as the tank just with the sun shinning off it?

The 85 version will certainly allow much more scope for everything in various colours, as these versions were used all over after the war and would have obviously been painted by more modern maintenance teams, etc....I intend to do one as a Vietnam version, using some of the Verlinden and DogTag Veitcong figures.

I am also wondering if it would be possible to order seperate part sprues from Trumpeter, as I would like to get the all steel wheels (43) in place of the tyred versions (42)

Carl
Aitch
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Posted: Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 04:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text



I am also wondering if it would be possible to order seperate part sprues from Trumpeter, as I would like to get the all steel wheels (43) in place of the tyred versions (42)

Carl


I'd be happy if Trumpeter released the wheels with a Barrikady gun mantlet as a seperate add on kit to do the Red October Tractor Factory version at Stalingrad - drool... :-)
Perhaps we should start an email campaign..?
sgirty
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Posted: Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 07:41 AM UTC
Hi, Aitch: I'd have to guess that within 4 to 6 months you'll bee seeing all kinds of 'add-ons' and 'extras' put out by the after-market peoples concerning this kit. I should hope at least. Esp. since there's very little out there now for this scale, generally speaking. I guess it just depends on how much of a market these particular kits generate in thenselves. If the manufacturers think there's money to be made off of it, we should be seeing a few things pop up for these kits here by fall.

Somebody on this thread has already listed they saw a advertizement for the aluminum barrels for the /42s and /43s. And the barrels are ususally the first things made when a new type of kit comes out. That's kind of the reason I'm going to try to hold off on doing the /85 for a while, just trying to play the 'wait and see game,' and hope a few things pop up.

With as many different types and styles that these machines came out with, there should be tons of things that could be made to sell as extras to change one of the 4 basic kits, or all of them for that matter.

Just have to be patient I suppose.

Take care, Sgirty
jejack2
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Posted: Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 08:48 AM UTC
I'm with you sgirty! I am building a '42 now, and have a 85 on order. When it comes in, it's going on the back shelf 'til I can find some aftermarket stuff....ie PE, Barrel, and a tank crew (please please please!)
cfbush2000
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Posted: Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 02:48 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I am just questioning the instuction colour guidlines....I suppose that they are purely guidlines.



Carl,
I agree about the use of museum examples by model companies. I am planning to use the Trumpeter instruction sheet as "just a guideline" as you stated.
I also share your urge to get the colors as close as I can. I'll tell you though, I'm really leaning toward a red/brown floor. I read that that is the primer color used on the interior.

I also think that the inside off all the hatches would most likely be the overall tank color. Also, I think the engine compartment interior may have been a light shade of green.

sgirty: After seeing the pics of your tank I have now decided to leave the hull top removable. Thanks for helping me get past the hurtle.

Chuck
jejack2
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Posted: Friday, July 16, 2004 - 09:09 PM UTC
Just a heads up for anyone building the '42 model. All of the reference photos I can find (most from Squadron/Signal's T34 in Action) put the model '42's headlight on the front glacis plate, and not on the side as in the instructions. According to my refrences the '43 (and t34/85) is the one(s) with the headlight on the side of the hull. On the '42, it is located to the RIGHT (if you are looking at the front) of the driver's hatch, centered (thereabouts) between the hatch and the inside of the fender, just above the top of the fender. (see pic, note that this tank has fender missing) Now I gotta cut mine off, and start again!

majorproblem
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Posted: Friday, July 16, 2004 - 09:35 PM UTC
Hi Jason,
That does appear right also referencing the 3 books I have, another note if you are doing this mod is that the 42 version would have no hooter / horn either.

Also with step 21 in the instructions regarding the rear deck mantlet, it says to cut a square hole next to the upside down "U" shaped hole....why?.....I do not see this on any reference pics and am now thinking I will have to fill it back in after cutting it!!

I think a big problem with this model is that the initial Trumpeter model was the 85 version and the 76 versions have been reverese engineered after yet produced first.

Carl
MCR
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Posted: Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 12:18 AM UTC
In regards to the headlight on "Model '42's", in the case of Factory 183 produced tanks (which the Trump kit appears to represent) it would not be uncommon to see it mounted on the side rather than the glacis. Indeed, if the illustrations in Michulec's "T-34, Mythical Weapon" are to be believed, the practice may have started as early as 1941 (perhaps with the introduction of the simplified driver's hatch?).

The examples of "42's" provided to both the US and UK during the war for testing were of this type and a pair of good photos can be seen in the MBI book "The T-34 Russian Battle Tank" by Hughes and Mann (the title page and page 7).

Factory 112 however did keep the light on the glasic well into '42 but you would need to make changes to both the glasic and rear plate to represent one of these tanks.

Mark
sgirty
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Posted: Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 03:55 AM UTC
Hi, Think that you are going to find all kinds of differences, not only between model year, but between the factories producing them as well. And this doesn't even count for re-builds. Think you could put the light wherever you wished it to be and you most likely would, to some extend, be historically correct somewhere along the line. Just like you could switich and change the types of road wheels and idlers between any of the 4 kits and still be historically correct. Even leaving one or two or the road wheel's outer wheels off or the whole thing completely gone if you wish.

Just placed an order with the folks at R & J today for 4 of their MIG color pigments. Russian Earth, Lt. Rust, Black Smoke and Eruopean Dust. So we'll see how these work on this monstser. Was doing a little tree trimming yesterday and 'rescued' 3 nice branches from them to tie onto the sides of the 'beast'. Also found some model ship's rope in a drawer that was used to rap around one of the grab handles for an 'extra.' Gave the upper hull and turret a light dry-brushing of very light base color and this really brings out that rough texture that's molded into the plastic.

Take care, Sgirty
jejack2
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Posted: Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 04:20 AM UTC
Thanks for the info Mark, I was just going on the 2 or 3 ref's that I had. Happy to know I don't have to change my tank now. You made me a happy camper today!
majorproblem
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Posted: Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 08:28 PM UTC
SGIRTY Your latest 2 pics look absolutely SUPERB!

Am taking a couple of pics of my work in progress now, should have them up later today.

Carl
majorproblem
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Posted: Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 09:22 PM UTC
Okay, got some pics now and a few more in my album.
Couple of mods I have made include opening up the pistol port in the turret hatch, opening up one of the ammo crates, an example of additional pipework and the backs to the fuel tanks.






Carl
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